Syagrus gouveiana (Gouveia Palm): A comprehensive Growing Guide for Enthusiasts & Collectors.

Syagrus gouveiana

Gouveia Palm - Brazil's Rarest Endemic Treasure
Syagrus gouveiana
🚨 CRITICALLY ENDANGERED - Less than 250 in the wild!
0.5m max CRITICALLY RARE
<250
Wild Individuals
10km²
Total Range
15+
Years to Flower
4-18
Months to Germinate

CRITICAL CONSERVATION STATUS

Syagrus gouveiana is one of the world's rarest palms! With fewer than 250 mature individuals remaining in the wild and its entire natural range confined to less than 10 square kilometers, this species faces imminent extinction risk from habitat loss due to quarrying activities and climate change. Every cultivated specimen represents a crucial contribution to ex-situ conservation efforts. This palm is listed as Critically Endangered and requires immediate conservation action.

1. Introduction

Habitat and Distribution

Syagrus gouveiana is an extremely rare endemic palm found exclusively in campos rupestres (rocky grasslands) of the Serra do Espinhaço mountain range in Minas Gerais, Brazil. This critically endangered species occupies quartzitic and sandstone outcrops at elevations between 1,200-1,400 meters, specifically near the town of Gouveia. It grows in shallow, acidic soils among rock crevices, experiencing extreme temperature fluctuations and seasonal drought, representing one of the most restricted palm distributions globally.

The species thrives in one of Earth's most extreme environments, characterized by daily temperature variations of up to 20°C, intense UV radiation, nutrient-poor soils with pH 4.5-5.5, and a pronounced dry season lasting 6 months. The palm has evolved remarkable adaptations to survive in shallow soil pockets within quartzitic rock formations, where water availability is limited to brief periods following rare rainfall events. This harsh habitat has shaped every aspect of the palm's morphology and physiology, from its subterranean trunk to its waxy, silvery-blue leaves that reflect intense solar radiation.

Native Continent

South America - endemic to a single mountain range in central Minas Gerais state, Brazil, with the entire wild population confined to less than 10 km².

📍 Critically Restricted Distribution:

  • Location: Serra do Espinhaço, near Gouveia, MG
  • Total Area: Less than 10 km²
  • Habitat: Campos rupestres (rocky grasslands)
  • Elevation: 1,200-1,400m
  • Substrate: Quartzitic and sandstone outcrops
  • Discovery: Scientifically described 2008
  • Wild Population: <250 mature individuals

Native range: Serra do Espinhaço, near Gouveia, Minas Gerais, Brazil
Click on markers for conservation details

Scientific Classification

Kingdom: Plantae
Clade: Tracheophytes
Clade: Angiosperms
Clade: Monocots
Clade: Commelinids
Order: Arecales
Family: Arecaceae (Palmae)
Subfamily: Arecoideae
Tribe: Cocoseae
Subtribe: Attaleinae
Genus: Syagrus
Species: S. gouveiana
Binomial name: Syagrus gouveiana L.Noblick & Lorenzi

Synonyms

  • No recognized synonyms (recently described species, 2008)
  • Previously confused with other dwarf Syagrus species
  • Sometimes misidentified as S. glaucescens in collections

Common Names

  • English: Gouveia palm, Gouveia's syagrus
  • Portuguese: Coco-de-gouveia, Palmeirinha-de-gouveia
  • Local: Coquinho-do-campo-rupestre
  • Conservation name: Brazilian cliff palm

Global Expansion

Due to its recent scientific description (2008) and extreme rarity, Syagrus gouveiana has minimal presence outside Brazil:

  • United States: Few specimens in specialized research collections (Fairchild, Montgomery)
  • Europe: Rare in botanical gardens (Kew, Monaco, Berlin-Dahlem)
  • Conservation collections: Priority species in ex-situ programs worldwide
  • Private collections: Extremely rare, highly sought by palm specialists
  • Seed banks: Limited representation due to poor seed storage capabilities
  • Research institutions: Subject of ongoing conservation studies
Conservation Note: The species' expansion is severely limited by its critical conservation status, with fewer than 250 mature individuals in the wild, and strict regulations on seed collection. All cultivation must prioritize conservation over commercial interests. Any seeds or plants in cultivation should be properly documented for conservation tracking purposes.

2. Biology and Physiology

Morphology

Syagrus gouveiana Size Comparison (Dwarf Palm) 1.7m Human Underground 10-20cm 5 years 20-30cm 10 years 1-2m deep roots 30-50cm MAX Mature (15+ years)

Trunk/Stem

Syagrus gouveiana typically develops a very short, often subterranean trunk, rarely emerging more than 30-50 cm above ground. When visible, the trunk measures 10-15 cm in diameter, covered with persistent leaf bases and fibers. The underground portion extends 1-2 meters deep into rock crevices, serving as water storage and anchor in the rocky substrate. This subterranean growth habit is a crucial adaptation to the extreme environment, protecting the growing point from fire, frost, and desiccation. The trunk tissue is extremely dense and fibrous, adapted to store water during the long dry season.

Leaves

The species produces distinctive blue-green to silvery pinnate leaves, 0.8-1.5 meters long, among the smallest in the genus. Each leaf contains 40-60 leaflets arranged in groups along the rachis. Leaflets are linear, 15-25 cm long and 1-1.5 cm wide, with a pronounced waxy coating providing drought protection. The crown typically consists of 6-12 leaves. Petioles are short, 20-40 cm, with smooth margins. The silvery-blue coloration, unique among Brazilian Syagrus species, results from a thick epicuticular wax layer that reflects up to 40% of incident solar radiation, crucial for surviving the intense UV exposure at high elevations.

Flower Systems

Monoecious with short inflorescences emerging between leaf bases. The spadix measures 30-50 cm, among the smallest in Syagrus. The spathe is woody, boat-shaped, persistent, often covered in a waxy coating similar to the leaves. Flowering occurs irregularly, typically at the onset of the rainy season (October-November), though the species may skip flowering in particularly dry years. Male flowers occupy the terminal portions of rachillae, with female flowers basally positioned. The compact inflorescence structure minimizes water loss and maximizes pollination efficiency in the windy montane environment.

Life Cycle

Life Cycle Timeline (Years) - Extremely Slow Growth 0 1 5 8 15 30 50+ Germination 4-18 months! Extremely slow Juvenile 6 months-8 years Rosette formation Sub-adult 8-15 years Minimal trunk Adult 15+ years Irregular flowering Rare! Longevity 50-80 years est. Unknown maximum

The palm follows an extremely slow growth pattern adapted to its harsh environment:

  • Germination phase (0-6 months): Extremely slow establishment, often delayed
  • Extended germination (6-18 months): Many seeds take over a year to germinate
  • Juvenile phase (6 months-8 years): Acaulescent rosette, focus on root development
  • Sub-adult phase (8-15 years): Minimal trunk development, energy storage
  • Adult phase (15+ years): Irregular flowering, dependent on conditions
  • Longevity: Unknown, estimated 50-80 years based on growth rings

Climate Adaptations

Temperature Extremes 40°C day 0°C night 20°C Daily Fluctuation
Drought Survival 6 MONTHS No Rain Apr-Sep Extreme Adaptation Deep taproot
UV Protection EXTREME UV 1,400m elevation Waxy coating
Nutrient Stress pH 4.5 Ultra-poor soils Quartzitic rock Minimal nutrients
  • Extreme temperature tolerance: Daily fluctuations of 20°C (0-40°C)
  • Drought adaptation: 6-month dry season survival without rain
  • Rock crevice specialization: Roots penetrate deep fissures for water
  • High UV tolerance: Waxy leaf coating reflects 40% of radiation
  • Fire resistance: Subterranean trunk survives surface fires
  • Nutrient scarcity: Adapted to ultra-poor quartzitic soils (pH 4.5-5.5)
  • Wind exposure: Compact form resists montane winds
  • Frost tolerance: Survives brief exposure to 0°C

3. Reproduction and Propagation

Conservation Warning: Seeds of this critically endangered species should only be obtained from authorized sources with proper documentation. All propagation efforts should prioritize conservation over commercial interests.

Seed Reproduction

Seed Morphology and Diversity

Seeds are small for the genus, ovoid, 1.5-2 cm long and 1-1.3 cm diameter. The endocarp is thin but hard, brown to black when mature. Endosperm is homogeneous, white, with lower oil content than related species, an adaptation to the cool montane climate. Fresh seed weight ranges from 1-2 grams. Genetic diversity is extremely low due to small population size, presenting significant conservation challenges. Studies indicate less than 5% genetic variation across the entire wild population, making the species vulnerable to diseases and environmental changes.

Seed Collection and Viability Testing

Collection challenges:
  • Protected species - permits required from Brazilian authorities
  • Optimal harvest: Orange fruits, December-February
  • Processing: Remove pulp immediately to prevent fungal growth
  • Viability period: 2-4 months maximum under ideal conditions
  • Storage: Cool (15-20°C), dry conditions slightly extend viability
  • Testing: Float test unreliable; cut test preferred
  • Expected viability: Only 30-50% in fresh seeds

Pre-germination Treatments

Critical Scarification Requirements:
  • Mechanical: Gentle filing of endocarp essential for germination
  • Soaking: 5-7 days in water, changing daily
  • Natural weathering: Exposure to temperature fluctuations beneficial
  • Acid treatment: Not recommended, damages embryo
Temperature Treatments:
  • Alternating temperatures: 15°C night/30°C day (critical for success)
  • Mimics natural habitat conditions with extreme daily variation
  • Constant temperatures result in poor germination

Step-by-step Germination Techniques

  1. Seed acquisition: Only from authorized conservation sources
  2. Documentation: Maintain records for conservation tracking
  3. Cleaning: Remove all fruit residue with brush
  4. Scarification: Light filing at germination pore (essential)
  5. Soaking: 5 days in distilled water, change daily
  6. Medium: 50% coarse sand, 30% perlite, 20% peat (pH 5.0-5.5)
  7. Container: Deep pots (30cm minimum) for taproot development
  8. Sowing: 2 cm deep, pointed end down
  9. Temperature: Fluctuating 15-30°C (use programmable heating)
  10. Moisture: Keep slightly moist, never wet
  11. Patience: Extremely slow process, do not disturb

Germination Difficulty: Very Difficult

Major Challenges:
  • Low viability even in fresh seeds (30-50%)
  • Extremely slow and irregular germination
  • Specific temperature fluctuation requirements
  • Prone to fungal infections during long germination
  • Success rate: Only 20-40% under optimal conditions

Germination Time

Extended Germination Timeline (Months!) 0 2 4 8 12 16 18 Seed sown Very slow! Earliest 4 months Average 8-10 months If successful Some seeds Up to 18 months! Success Rate: Only 20-40% even with perfect conditions
  • Range: 4-18 months (extremely variable)
  • Average: 8-10 months under optimal conditions
  • Extremely irregular: Seeds from same batch germinate months apart
  • Patience required: Do not discard seeds for at least 18 months

Seedling Care and Early Development

  • Year 1: Minimal visible growth, focus on root development
  • Year 2: First true pinnate leaves may appear
  • Years 3-5: Extremely slow development, 2-3 leaves total
  • Year 5+: Gradually increase light exposure
  • Fertilization: Minimal, 1/4 strength monthly during growing season
  • Critical: Never disturb roots, fatal to young plants

Advanced Germination Techniques

Hormonal Treatments:
  • GA3: 300 ppm may improve germination by 10-15%
  • Smoke water: Beneficial for campo rupestre species
  • Mycorrhizal inoculation: Critical for establishment
  • Research ongoing: Conservation programs testing new methods
Conservation Note: Due to the extreme difficulty of germination and the species' critical status, consider supporting in-situ conservation efforts in Brazil rather than attempting cultivation. If you do cultivate this species, maintain detailed records and consider participating in ex-situ conservation networks.

4. Cultivation Requirements

Extreme Cultivation Challenge: Syagrus gouveiana is one of the most difficult palms to cultivate successfully. It requires very specific conditions that are nearly impossible to replicate outside its natural habitat. Only experienced growers with appropriate facilities should attempt cultivation.

Light Requirements

Species-specific Light Tolerance

  • Seedlings (0-2 years): 40-50% shade essential
  • Juveniles (2-5 years): 30% shade to full sun
  • Adults (5+ years): Full sun preferred for optimal health
  • High UV exposure: Actually beneficial, mimics habitat
  • Adaptation: Can tolerate extreme light intensity

Seasonal Light Management

  • Year-round full exposure once established
  • Some afternoon shade beneficial in extreme heat (>40°C)
  • Winter sun exposure important for cold tolerance
  • Photoperiod: Adapts to 10-14 hour days

Artificial Lighting for Indoor Cultivation

  • Not recommended: Impossible to replicate habitat conditions
  • If attempted: High intensity LED with UV spectrum
  • Minimum: 14-16 hour photoperiod
  • UV supplementation: Critical for proper development

Temperature and Humidity Management

Optimal Temperature Ranges

  • Day temperature: 25-35°C (77-95°F)
  • Night temperature: 10-20°C (50-68°F)
  • Critical: Daily fluctuation of 10-20°C required
  • Extremes tolerated: 0-40°C briefly

Cold Tolerance and Hardiness

  • Hardiness Zone: USDA 9a-11 (marginal in 9a)
  • Frost tolerance: Brief exposure to 0°C when mature
  • Young plants: Damaged below 5°C
  • Cold adaptation: Night cooling essential for health

Humidity Requirements

  • Average needs: 40-60% relative humidity
  • Drought tolerance: Excellent when established
  • High humidity: Can cause fungal problems
  • Dry air: Well tolerated, mimics natural habitat

Soil and Nutrition

Ideal Soil Composition - CRITICAL REQUIREMENTS

Coarse sand 60% Gravel 20% Perlite 10% Peat 10% pH 4.5-6.0 ACIDIC Essential!

Critical: Must mimic rocky substrate - standard palm mix will kill this species!

  • Type: Extremely well-draining, mineral-based
  • pH range: 4.5-6.0 (acidic essential - alkaline soil fatal)
  • Organic matter: Minimal (2-5% maximum)
  • Critical: Must mimic rocky campo rupestre substrate
  • Mix recipe: 60% coarse sand, 20% gravel, 10% perlite, 10% acidic peat

Nutrient Requirements

  • Very low feeders: Over-fertilization causes rapid decline
  • Fertilizer: 1/4 strength 10-10-10 NPK maximum
  • Frequency: 2-3 times per year only during growing season
  • Organic: Small amounts of decomposed leaf compost acceptable
  • Warning: Standard palm fertilizer rates will kill this species

Micronutrient Management

  • Iron: Critical in alkaline conditions, use chelated form
  • Trace elements: Minimal requirements
  • Avoid: High phosphorus levels toxic to this species
  • Magnesium: Very low doses only

Water Management

Irrigation Requirements

  • Growing season (Oct-Mar): Weekly deep watering
  • Dry season (Apr-Sep): Monthly or less
  • Critical: Never waterlogged - will die quickly
  • Method: Deep, very infrequent watering

Drought Tolerance

  • Excellent: Survives 3-4 months without water when established
  • Adaptations: Deep taproot, waxy leaves, water storage in trunk
  • Strategy: Wet-dry cycles essential for health
  • Warning: Consistent moisture causes root rot

Water Quality

  • Salinity: Very sensitive (<500 ppm)
  • pH preference: Acidic (5.5-6.5)
  • Hard water: Fatal - use rainwater or RO water
  • Chlorine: Sensitive, let water stand 24 hours

Drainage Requirements

ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL: Fatal if waterlogged even briefly. Must have perfect drainage - consider this the #1 requirement for success. Most failures result from inadequate drainage.
  • Percolation: Must drain completely within minutes
  • Solutions: Raised beds, rock gardens, slope planting
  • Container drainage: Multiple large holes, gravel layer

5. Diseases and Pests

Common Problems

  • Overwatering: #1 cause of death - fatal root rot
  • Over-fertilization: Causes rapid decline and death
  • Alkaline soil: Chlorosis followed by death
  • Poor drainage: Root rot within days
  • Insufficient temperature variation: Poor health, no flowering

Disease Identification

Fungal Diseases

  • Root rot: From overwatering; usually fatal within weeks
  • Leaf spot: Rare in dry conditions
  • Generally disease-resistant: If grown in proper dry conditions

Bacterial Diseases

  • Very rare: Due to dry habitat preference
  • Crown rot: Only in excessively humid conditions

Pest Identification

Insect Pests

  • Scale insects: Occasional problem; treat with horticultural oil
  • Mealybugs: Rare; remove manually
  • Generally pest-resistant: Harsh native habitat deters most pests

Protection Methods

Environmental (Most Important)

  • Perfect drainage: Paramount for survival
  • Avoid overwatering: At all costs
  • Maintain acidic soil pH: Test regularly
  • Provide temperature fluctuations: Essential for health
  • Good air circulation: Prevents fungal issues

Chemical

  • Rarely needed: If environmental conditions correct
  • Preventive fungicides: Only if humidity excessive
  • Minimal intervention: This species resents chemicals

6. Indoor Palm Growing

NOT RECOMMENDED FOR INDOOR CULTURE
This species requires extreme environmental conditions impossible to replicate indoors, including daily temperature fluctuations of 15-20°C, intense UV radiation, and perfect drainage.

Specific Indoor Care (If Attempted)

Container Requirements

  • Type: Deep pots essential for taproot (minimum 40cm deep)
  • Material: Unglazed clay strongly preferred for breathability
  • Drainage: Multiple large holes, 10cm gravel layer
  • Size: Narrow but very deep

Environmental Control

  • Light: Maximum possible, south-facing window minimum
  • Temperature: Must provide daily 15°C fluctuation
  • Humidity: Keep low (40-50%)
  • Air circulation: Critical - use fans

Replanting Procedures

  • Frequency: Every 4-5 years only - resents disturbance
  • Season: Early spring only
  • Root disturbance: Minimize absolutely - often fatal
  • Medium: Refresh drainage layer, maintain acidic pH
  • Recovery: Very slow, may take full year

Wintering Indoor Palms

  • Temperature: Cool nights (10-15°C) essential
  • Watering: Minimal, monthly or less
  • Light: Maximum available
  • Fertilization: None whatsoever

7. Landscape and Outdoor Cultivation

Design Applications

  • Rock gardens: Perfect naturalistic choice
  • Xeriscaping: Excellent drought tolerance
  • Conservation gardens: Important endemic species display
  • Alpine houses: Ideal controlled cultivation
  • Specimen planting: Unique compact form
  • Container culture: Deep pots on patios
  • Botanical collections: Rare species showcase

Site Selection

  • Full sun exposure essential once established
  • Perfect drainage absolutely mandatory
  • Rocky or gravelly areas ideal
  • Slopes strongly preferred over flat ground
  • Protection from winter wet critical
  • Away from irrigation systems

8. Cold Climate Cultivation Strategies

Cold Hardiness Assessment

Campo Rupestre Temperature Adaptation -2°C Damage 0°C Brief OK 5°C Safe 10-30°C OPTIMAL 40°C Tolerates USDA Zones 9a-11 Requires daily temperature fluctuation

Temperature Thresholds

  • Mature plants: Tolerate 0°C briefly
  • Established plants: -2°C for very short periods
  • Young plants: Protect below 5°C
  • Wet cold: More damaging than dry cold
  • Critical: Requires cool nights even in summer

Winter Protection Systems

Physical Protection

  • Rain shelter: Critical in winter - wet + cold = death
  • Mulching: Gravel mulch only, never organic
  • Covering: During freeze events only

Structural Protection

  • Alpine house: Ideal cultivation method
  • Cold frames: Good option with ventilation
  • Unheated greenhouse: Perfect if dry

Hardiness Zone Specifications

  • Zone 9a-11: Outdoor with perfect drainage
  • Zone 8b: Alpine house strongly recommended
  • Zone 8a and below: Heated greenhouse only

Winter Protection Materials

  • Drainage materials: Gravel, pumice crucial
  • Covers: Breathable fabric only
  • Never use: Plastic directly on plant
  • Mulch: Mineral mulch only

Establishment and Maintenance in Landscapes

Planting Techniques for Success

Site Preparation (Critical for Success)
  • Drainage test: Water must drain within minutes
  • Soil acidification: Add sulfur to achieve pH 4.5-6.0
  • Rock placement: Create natural crevices
  • Raised beds: Minimum 30cm above grade
  • Gravel layer: 15cm minimum at base
Planting Process
  1. Timing: Late spring only after frost danger
  2. Hole preparation: Deep for taproot, wide drainage area
  3. Amendments: Sulfur for acidification, no organics
  4. Position: Crown must be above soil level
  5. Backfill: Sandy, gravelly, acidic mix
  6. Initial water: Once deeply, then wait 2 weeks
  7. Mulch: 10cm gravel or pumice only

Long-term Maintenance Schedules

Monthly Tasks
  • Visual inspection only - do not disturb
  • Check for drainage issues
  • Remove any competing weeds carefully
Quarterly Tasks
  • Deep watering if no rain (growing season only)
  • pH testing - maintain acidity
  • Very light fertilization if any
Annual Tasks
  • Soil acidification with sulfur if needed
  • Gravel mulch renewal
  • Minimal pruning - remove only dead leaves
  • Conservation status documentation
  • Photo documentation for conservation records

Final Summary

Syagrus gouveiana represents one of the world's rarest palms, with its entire natural population confined to a few square kilometers of Brazilian campo rupestre. This critically endangered species presents unique cultivation challenges, requiring growers to replicate its extreme habitat: perfectly drained, acidic, nutrient-poor soils with full sun exposure and dramatic temperature fluctuations.

The palm's compact size, distinctive silvery-blue foliage, and extreme drought tolerance make it highly desirable for specialized collections, yet its rarity and protected status severely limit availability. With fewer than 250 wild individuals facing habitat loss from quarrying and climate change, every cultivated specimen contributes significantly to species survival. However, successful cultivation demands abandoning typical palm care practices in favor of techniques more suited to alpine or succulent plants.

Critical cultivation requirements include absolutely perfect drainage (waterlogging is quickly fatal), acidic pH (4.5-6.0), minimal fertilization, and full sun exposure once established. The species' extremely slow growth rate, taking 15+ years to reach flowering size, demands exceptional patience from growers. Germination is particularly challenging, with low seed viability (30-50%), extended germination periods (4-18 months), and painfully slow seedling development.

The palm thrives in rock gardens, xeriscaped landscapes, and alpine houses where its specific requirements can be met. Container cultivation in deep pots allows for adequate taproot development while ensuring drainage control. Success requires understanding its adaptation to one of Earth's most challenging environments - quartzitic outcrops with minimal soil, extreme UV exposure, dramatic temperature swings, and six-month droughts.

Key adaptations that must be considered in cultivation include the subterranean trunk that protects against environmental extremes, silvery-blue leaves with heavy wax coating for UV and drought protection, deep taproot system accessing water in rock crevices, and tolerance for ultra-poor, acidic soils. The species requires daily temperature fluctuations of 10-20°C for proper growth and will not thrive without this variation.

Common cultivation failures result from overwatering (the primary killer), alkaline soils, excessive fertilization, inadequate drainage, or attempting standard palm cultivation practices. This species demands a completely different approach, with less water, less fertilizer, more drainage, and more environmental stress than typical palms. Growers must resist the urge to "help" the plant with extra water or nutrients, as this kindness will prove fatal.

Conservation significance cannot be overstated - with habitat destruction ongoing and climate change threatening the remaining population, ex-situ cultivation may prove crucial for species survival. Every successfully cultivated specimen should be documented and potentially included in conservation breeding programs. Seeds should only be obtained from authorized sources with proper CITES documentation, and all cultivation efforts should prioritize conservation over commercial interests.

For specialist growers willing to provide exacting conditions and exercise extreme patience, Syagrus gouveiana offers the opportunity to preserve one of Earth's rarest palms while enjoying its unique beauty and remarkable adaptations to one of Brazil's most extreme environments. Success requires dedication, patience, and a willingness to learn from failures, but the reward is participating in the conservation of a species teetering on the edge of extinction.

The future of Syagrus gouveiana depends on both in-situ habitat protection in Brazil and successful ex-situ cultivation worldwide. Climate change may actually expand potential cultivation areas as weather patterns become more extreme, but the species' limited genetic diversity poses significant long-term challenges. Research into cultivation techniques, seed storage, and genetic preservation continues, with each cultivated plant providing valuable data for conservation efforts.

FINAL CONSERVATION APPEAL:
If you successfully cultivate Syagrus gouveiana, please:
  • Document your methods and share with conservation organizations
  • Maintain detailed growth records
  • Never collect wild seeds without permits
  • Consider donating seeds from cultivated plants to seed banks
  • Support Brazilian campo rupestre conservation efforts
  • Join international palm conservation networks

Every cultivated plant matters for this species' survival!

CR CRITICALLY ENDANGERED <250 Wild Individuals Serra do Espinhaço Minas Gerais, Brazil SAVE THIS SPECIES Every plant counts!
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